Episode 8: Intersectionality of Racism and Sexism featuring Steven Cleveland

In this episode, we talk about intersectionality, when it comes to racism and sexism, along with analyzing how the “B” word and “N” word are perceived differently. We also discuss the problems that face the case of Breonna Taylor and how black women can be more supported. 

We also have a guest joining us once again, Steven Cleveland, an activist, filmmaker and Professor of Black Studies at Cal State East Bay, who enlightens us on his upcoming film about Martin Luther King Jr. 

We discuss:

- Understanding What It Means To Be A Recovering Sexist 

- Thoughts On The “B” Word Versus The “N” Word

- Showing Up For Black Women

- Cleveland’s Upcoming Film About MLK

...and more! 

Here are some highlights:

Steven Cleveland On How He Feels About The “B” Word Versus The “N” Word

“I sort of went back to my students and I was like, I've been thinking a bit about this idea of how the “B” ­word was okay. And how the “N” word didn't feel as comfortable. I say part of it is the truth of reflecting music,” said Cleveland. “So as a professor, when I'm analyzing things, if someone uses a word, I don't say “N word” or “B word.” So when you're analyzing it is a little weird to not sort of articulate what it is and explore it. So part of it was a response to the song, but the other part was that I'm just really comfortable with it. The other point was that we had this whole conversation and I was like, I am a recovering sexist as are most men who grew up in the time that I grew up because television told me this is what women’s roles were. Mama reinforced it. Everybody in the community had this sort of thing, and so you just become comfortable in a way with that.

I think that part of it made me not aware. It was really an oversight in my thinking, 'cause I'm not aware of the dichotomy of the idea of using the “B” ­word fluently, while at the same time, not using the “N” ­word, and it's really interesting, 'cause I'd say most... There have  been more “B” ­word songs than there have been “N” word songs. So it is part of pop culture, and I mean people use the “N” word in songs, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, there have been more titles of songs with the “B” word. To me, that's part of it. The normalization of the “B” word is there. So I apologize, I was a little bit sexist at that moment. I'm catching it, I brought it to my students and I was like, nobody called me on it in my class. But I just want to reflect on it. We have to sort of balance it. In terms of moving forward.”

Defining Intersectionality From Kimberlé Crenshaw

“Intersectionality was coined in 1989 by Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw to describe how race, class, gender, and other individual characteristics intersect with one another and overlap. We say it was coined because the term existed well before Kimberlé Crenshaw. However, it became a pop culture term when she re-­introduced it in 1989. So we're specifically talking about how race and sex overlaps in the forms of racism and sexism specifically,” said Collette Bowers Zinn.

Considering The Impact On Black Women Versus Black Men

“The intersectionality of it means that oftentimes in our pursuit of protecting blackness, we're looking squarely at black men and not necessarily considering the impact on black women. I think about the idea of discipline in schools.” said Steven Cleveland. “The numbers show that black women are disproportionately receiving penalties in schools just like black men, but most of the time when we talk about schools and the disproportionate amount of attention black folks get, we're talking about black men.”

Intersectionality In Connection With Breonna Taylor

“Victim blaming is a big part of it, holistically. But I don't know, I think that in regards to the attention, or to the notoriety, I think that Breonna Taylor was forgotten for a bit. So the emergence of Breonna Taylor came with activists really turning their energy to put focus back on her when nothing was happening with the case for a long, long time. And so I think that it took activists to re-focus the energy back to her and losing sight of black women in this thing is something that I could say is more in regards to gender. But I think that the way in which the  system is treating her would be more about racial. Cause it’s the way that it treats black folks holistically,” said Steven Cleveland.

Cleveland’s Thoughts On Being Black In America

“That's the part that's messed up about being black in America, is that you don't get a job  and you don't get to have the freedom to know I just wasn't the qualified person. You have to think, is it because I’m black? Is it because I'm poor? You think they could tell that I didn't grow  up rich? Or did I slip and use some of my home language? So I think that's sort of the complication that I'm saying. I'm not saying that it's not the case. I'm saying it is hard to parse which part of you is being attacked, and that is one of the side products of living in this.”

Intersectionality Of Black Women

“Crenshaw argues that black women are discriminated against in ways that often do not fit neatly within the legal categories of either racism or sexism, but as a combination of both, ” said Bowers Zinn. “Yet the legal system has generally defined sexism as based upon an unspoken reference to the injustices confronted by all, including white women, while defining racism to refer to those faced by all, including male, blacks and other people of color. This framework frequently renders black women legally invisible and without legal recourse. I feel like that's exactly what is happening in this case.”

In Response To Collette And Lisa Discussing Young Black Women Growing Up

“I think that's true of my daughter, I think about the world she goes into, and I recall a conversation I had with a good friend about thinking about having a young black girl and the things that she would face both as a woman, and as a black person. How I want to create and hold space. I think that is it,” said Cleveland.

Being A Member Of The Community

“The issue with Breonna Taylor should not be her black woman­ism. I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm saying that because of the circumstances around it, there’s no way it should not be acted on,” said Steven Cleveland. “I read a comment from a black person, who said that If Ahmaud Arbery might’ve ran differently, he might be alive still. As in, running in the street instead of hugging the side. Wait, so you victim blaming this brother, for how he’s jogging? He got hunted by these people. I'm saying that is exactly at play when we have conversations about Breonna Taylor, about how we hold on Breonna Taylor in our collective psyche. That marginalization, that sort of not holding and centering her existence, her value to her family, and her need for justice. That should be the thing until it's solved. I'm saying, everyone should be all hands on deck until this one is made right.” 

Race Is An American Problem

“It's an American problem. So I want to be clear, race is this thing that we constructed here and we have a special relationship to it. The fact of race in America does not allow for black people to ever become white. We're the only group that hasn't become white. Jewish people became white, and Italians became white. Everybody transitioned, even Hispanics now can check Caucasian on the box. Everyone gets brought in except for us, because the way race is constructed in America, they need the other and we are that other.”

Colette adds, “And the black woman ends up being the other other because of the additional element of sex…of gender.”

Steven Cleveland’s Experiences Have Shaped His Growth

“Susan and I went to film school together at USC. and we used to produce stuff together. And we found that different people responded to us differently. If she managed to cry, the discounts would really come her way, and if I managed to flirt with gay men, we would get stuff. We used to just absolutely enjoy navigating spaces and laughing at the absurdity of how people responded based off of their own stereotypes or whatever they had. I think for me, that's a part of the way I try to show up. I absolutely like black women, that's something that I gotta say, seems not to be a fashionable thing. I really do. I have great, wonderful experiences from grandma in the flower bed to Mama advocating for me at school. To some of my best friends that we play dominos together, hang out and laugh. They gave me a great insight into understanding how to be present for black women and allow them the space to self ­determine what they need from you, and it's a difficult thing. In the world of mansplaining and I like talking, so I'm a mansplainer, I can get in there. And the world of mansplaining and fixing things, I really learned how to stop fixing  things for black women. I really learned how to just say, alright, so here's my idea, you may not agree with it, but I care.” 

How To Take Action And Support Black Women

“So I think we all have to define what winning looks like. So you all have to be leaders in that  conversation. What does winning look like for black women? It means that your podcast is successful, that you have access and grow your ability to affect change,” said Steven Cleveland. “And so if I can support that, that's why I'm here, right? So can I help them do that. That's the reason why I never, ever feel like it's a burden because I know if I hold you up, then in the end, it's blessing me. Because that's the idea that you create space by lifting up other folks. You are also lifting yourself up to it. So in this space, you've got an agency, and if you bring people up to you, you're not losing anything. You're gaining allies and you're gaining strength. And that's it for me. It's not that deep. It's okay to be wrong. And to make mistakes, that's part of the reason why I have the conversation with my class.”

Trying To Reach People Who May Not Agree With You

“I think when we talk about winning as a people, real leadership is not being right in the extremes. Real leadership is getting in the middle and pushing stuff. Alright, let's accomplish something. So I've been spending a lot of time thinking, and this film to me is all about, what are we claiming? What are we gonna claim from this black lives moment? What things will my  daughter look back on and say, oh, that changed and this is sustainable and we can do it. I think we can't be so caught up in our extremes,” said Cleveland. “I always talk to my progressive brothers and sisters and say like, ‘Look, some of my black people are homophobic,’ I  don't know that we're gonna get them to turn on that in this moment. So let's not make it, ‘If you are homophobic, you can't be on team,’ let's figure out the places we agree on, and let's work on that. I'm gonna show up accepting everybody, and that's my example that I'm bringing. My hope is that the light shines and over time people would get on to where I'm at.”

Cleveland’s Film On MLK: King In Paradise

“So we are calling it ‘King In Paradise,’ and it's a look at MLK’s five ­day trip in 1959. MLK was hanging out in Hawaii before MLK was MLK,” said Steven Cleveland. “Montgomery Boycott was the biggest thing. His first book, he had just done a year before. So he really was just a young man on the rise. He just wasn't super, super star status. He came back in ‘64 to Hawaii and he was a superstar by the end. But yeah, in ‘59, he was still growing a following. This was the largest non-black or white group he had ever spoken in front of. And so he got to be the first diplomat to speak in front of the Hawaiian State Assembly three weeks after it was formed. Because in ‘59, Hawaii became a state. So it was a really interesting moment that many people don't know about. So I love, love, love, being able to work on it and bring it to life with the great Charles Burnett, who inspired me to become a filmmaker.”

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