Episode 9: Allyship featuring Shelly Tochluk and Ansley Newsom Kreitler
In this episode, we talk about allyship with Shelly Tochluk & Ansley Newsom Kreitler. We discuss how to be a better ally and show up, the growing pains of understanding and accepting systemic racism, the difference between being an empath and an ally, and so much more.
We discuss:
- Allyship Explained
- How To Be A Better Ally And Show Up
- Growing Pains Of Understanding And Accepting Systemic Racism
...and more!
Here are some highlights:
Shelly’s Experience Of Being Erased (based on gender)
“It's such a point of privilege, but I don't remember,” Shelly said. “I am an educator and I work at a women's college. I work mostly with women. The people who are above me are women. I'm an only child, where my father really became a feminist on my behalf, and so I have had this experience of being raised to use my voice wherever I am even when I'm with men to not feel erased, and it's having been a white female, that's just what my life experience has been.”
Ansley’s Experience Of Being Erased (based on gender)
“I think the first thing that comes to mind is a visit to a dental office that I had recently,” Ansley said. “It was a new practice for me, and the dentist talked down to his assistant and it was really awkward. I thought maybe they were just having an argument that day. But on subsequent visits, I realized that's just the dynamic within the whole office, even with the other women in the office. It was very awkward, and even though it wasn't directed at me personally, I felt diminished just by being a woman in that space. It felt very toxic.”
Allyship Explained By Shelly
“I like to think of allyship as more than being an ally, 'cause that’s as though you've arrived into a position,” Shelly said. “It's a role. I'm an ally, that is problematic because quite frankly, allyship is more relational. For me, being an ally is at any given moment, being able to show up and respond in a way that is supportive and useful toward justice. And toward racial justice, if you're talking about white allyship, so to speak.”
Allyship Explained By Ansley
“Originally, I thought of an ally as someone who walks in someone else's shoes,” Ansley said. “Which is extremely important, but now I think of a true ally as the need to examine your own shoes and the shoes that I'm in and see if anything needs changing or if I'm unknowingly contributing to the problem. I used to think ally was simply not being a racist, but I think maybe the first step is to being a true ally is not necessarily equating the word ‘racist’ with a white supremacist or a member of the KKK, but rather understanding that we're all racist in a way. We all have biases and of all races, even within our own community.”
Co-Conspirator: What It Potentially Means
“The ally position has often given the connotation that people of color, black, indigenous people of color don't have agency on their own,” Shelly said. “So the allies act as though people of color can't do something without having the ally who's gonna swoop in and be the savior person. So that's kind of a problematic part of that term ally, in the way some people have used it. So the co-conspirator tries to solve some of those problems. So co-conspirator is active engagement with somebody. It's like there's a shared effort toward Liberation with the idea of co-conspirator, so I get that term. I like it.”
Ansley’s Growing Knowledge And Understanding Of Racism
“I've been thinking about race for several years, 'cause I've witnessed how ineffective shame is as a motivator,” Ansley said. “It stops the conversation and you end up with a lost opportunity. This summer, I reached out to a lot of white friends in order to create a space where they could talk and feel comfortable messing up while also hopefully learning and growing at the same time. I love RBG ‘Standing up for something, but doing it in a way that people wanna join you.’ I really agree with that, so I'm just a novice, but I'm trying.”
Shelly’s View And Thoughts On Racism
“I remember really clearly being a person who got raised to think that racism was wrong, but it wasn't until this sort of situation where I had to realize, oh, wait a minute, I'm actually part of this. There's something I need to fix,” Shelly said. “There's something I need to do. This is bigger than just wanting people to be treated well. Psychologically, it was like the rug being ripped out from under me to take it seriously. I would say that right now, we are in a time period where so many people have advanced in this conversation. The distance between being unconscious to this to becoming able to have a decent conversation on this is like a huge goal for white people. Not only are we needing to realize that there's deep systemic racism in all sorts of different ways and be able to talk about that, but we have to understand that this also comes with our normal attitudes and behaviors. The things that we say that end up being micro-aggressions without our intent and being asked to immediately get good at all of that is really what's called for.”
Collette On Not Personalizing Specific Conversations
“I think it is really important that we have the ability to not personalize these conversations,” Bowers Zinn said, “And I think that's the main lesson that if we can learn as human beings. And especially as human beings that are navigating these spaces of diversity, equity and inclusion in the learning that carries us through. Not needing to shame, blame, all of that good stuff. Because we can just understand that it's not about us while having these conversations.”
Shelly Explains How Understanding Systemic Racism May Feel Wrong At First
“It just took me a long time for the insights that were new to actually fill up my brain enough to de-center all of the narratives I had been fed all of my entire life,” Shelly said. “And so when I think somebody's just waking up to this, it can feel really overwhelming and it can feel wrong. Let me just say it, it can feel not correct. And so you know that the thing you saw on the video was wrong. That part feels wrong. That is clearly wrong. George Floyd should not have died. That should not have happened, but to take that experience of watching that video and turn it into a deep understanding about how the entire criminal justice system is problematically racist, and how it's infused in every nook and cranny of it… It took me years to understand all of those pieces.”
Shelly Believes Growth Comes From Getting Uncomfortable
“First thing that comes from my experience is to get uncomfortable, allow yourself to be in conversations,” Shelly said. “Whether it's watching, listening, attending, where you're not the majority. Listen to opinions that seem absolutely radically contrary to what you think is true about the world. Then listen harder, and then as you keep having internal arguments about that, listen harder and keep digging in until you find where the truth lies in that. Even if there's some part of you that still is maintaining some aspect of your own truth. That still is happening for me, I still do that, that's an ongoing practice.”
Antiracism Doesn’t Have To Be Scary, It Can Be Beautiful
“I've been studying the rise of the far right and white supremacists for the last two years,” Shelly said. “And so that's the journey I'm on recently, but I think really, what you're asking for is the answer, No, I'm not all done. This thing is about layers. This thing is about being an onion and consistently peeling back a layer and then finding more and then peeling back a layer. That's good work. And if you can join a community and be part of people who are doing that toward a liberator goal that is multiracial and vibrant, then that's where the good stuff in life is found. Where the joy can be found. Antiracism doesn't have to be just this awful, horrible thing eventually, at first it's hard, but joining the community of people who are working to make this country better. That's a beautiful, beautiful thing.”
Ansley Shares Her Thoughts On Potential Communication Barriers Between Racial Groups
“I think white people are terrified of making those mistakes and saying the wrong thing,” Ansley said. “Then they don't even engage at all, and they retreat back to their community where they don't have to focus on it because that's the luxury of their position. But black people don't have that choice.”
Check Out Aware LA Online
“Because of the pandemic Aware LA is online, go to awarela.org and sign up for a Saturday or a Sunday,” Shelly said. “Join the conversation and post questions. Learn and listen to other white people's journey stories. Ask them how they got involved and learn a little bit through that. Ask for what resources have gotten them a few steps ahead. We all need to help each other get that step ahead, that's one part of it. And then in our multiracial lives and our lived experience, it's about taking the messages we're receiving seriously. Not expecting to be taught by people in our lives and to keep treating each other like full human beings.”
Shelly’s Book Witnessing Whiteness
“I wrote it for my dad. I mean, I wrote it for the human race, but I wrote it because my journey to feeling like an okay person in the world who was dedicated to antiracism no matter what, even if there was somebody telling me I was doing it wrong or that I shouldn't be doing it, and that I needed to have enough deep roots to know that no matter who I was talking to, that I was gonna stay in the fight for this. Yeah, I wanted more people to get farther ahead, faster than I did. I also wanted to repair my relationship with my family, with whom I felt very disconnected. Because for white people who start having this conversation, when everybody around them doesn't understand it, that actually can be kind of alienating. Again, at the time, there wasn't a community around me to dive into of white people who got it. So I wrote it with my dad in mind.”
Resources from this episode:
AWARE-LA.org Saturday Dialogues, hosted by Shelly
https://www.awarela.org/saturday-dialogue
Racial Justice Freeway article on Medium:
https://medium.com/@shellytochluk/on-ramps-and-lanes-on-the-racial-justice-freeway-9ff2ee051042
Webster speech, Allyship in a Time of Polarization:
Video version: https://livestream.com/accounts/22203691/events/9010134/videos/202331865
Podcast version: https://soundcloud.com/edgorlok/diversity-and-inclusion-2020-allyship-in-a-time-of-polarization
Intro music by https://instagram.com/mikedupreemusic
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